Author Topic: Why is so much made about proxy levels here?  (Read 11710 times)

Wickerman

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Why is so much made about proxy levels here?
« on: August 07, 2007, 03:13:12 AM »
Everything I know about anonymous proxies tells me that levels don't mean anything.  A proxy is anonymous or it isn't, simple as that.  So why are proxies broken up by levels here?  This whole thing about levels mattering is a myth that I thought was dispelled years ago.  The proxy tools I use don't even test for levels because the authors of them knew it was irrelevant.  So that makes posting anything kind of impossible for me.  I'm certainly not going to go back to the dark ages of testing with AD, lol.

katmando

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Re: Why is so much made about proxy levels here?
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2007, 05:28:17 AM »
Although I don't entirely disagree with the theory you support about levels, it would be interesting to know what proxy analyzing software you currently use to determine the anonymity of a proxy?

Most of the leading software for this purpose, commercial or free, does in fact offer a "level" in one form or another.  Charon and AATools offer a points system instead of the traditional 1 to 5 levels, and HellLabs Proxy Checker classifies proxies into "elite, anonymous, etc".  And how do you think these programs determine those ratings?  They assess value to proxy based on what is or isn't revealed by the proxy during a test against a given proxyjudge ... very similar to those used with the basic 1 to 5 level rating system.

Any proxy analyzing software (Proxyrama and perhaps another I won't mention) that doesn't offer a rating is because the authors wrote it based on a porn site cracker/hacker mentality, which is "either it is anonymous or it isn't, and if it is it can be used". 

Is it truly your personal experience that in some cases it isn't an advantage to use a proxy that doesn't reveal that it is a proxy?

And, if you are the Wickerman who wrote a tutorial for AD (AccessDiver) several years ago, then you should know that AD was NEVER a good tester of proxies for a variety of reasons.
I tell it like it is and that's offensive to those professing knowledge they don't have.

Wickerman

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Re: Why is so much made about proxy levels here?
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2007, 06:43:59 AM »
Yeah, I am that guy.  But that was when I was starting out.  I haven't used AD in years.  I use Charon and yes, it does have a point system.  But it doesn't really have levels exactly.  To me the only thing that matters with a proxy is whether it spills your IP or not?  Everything else is pointless.  In my 10 years or so of doing this I've been able to do whatever I want with an anonymous proxy regardless of its level.  But then again maybe you're using them for something different, or are just more paranoid than I am.

Wickerman

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Re: Why is so much made about proxy levels here?
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2007, 06:45:35 AM »
Damn, no edit on this board.  I made a typo or two in that last reply.:(

katmando

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Re: Why is so much made about proxy levels here?
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2007, 07:26:19 AM »
Yes, it is ridiculous that this board does not allow editing, especially before anyone else has posted within a thread.  Nothing in life is perfect.

My (vast) experiences and those of others actually has nothing to do with paranoia, it is simply a matter of fact that we all have different uses for different reasons.  So, unless you wish to get into a mud sling contest, please don't try to insult me.  As I said above, you are offering a personal position based on a hacker/cracker mentality.  That is perfectly fine for you and those like you, but it is simply one point of view and is based on a very restricted and limit scope.

Obviously my explanation of how Charon (and other programs) that use a points rating system went right over your head.  A level 1 and 2 in the old 1 to 5 level rating system is the same as Charon highest points ratings.  Levels 4 and 5 would be the equivalent to Charon's lowest points ratings.

For example:  There are sites that simply do not allow access if they can determine the user is using a proxy.  So, using whatever rating system you like, unless the user uses a highly anonymous (elite) proxy, access will be denied.  Get it?

 
I tell it like it is and that's offensive to those professing knowledge they don't have.

Wickerman

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Re: Why is so much made about proxy levels here?
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2007, 09:11:08 AM »
Touchy, touchy.  Well, this board ain't for me then.  I can't imagine what type of sites you guys are trying to access that you have to worry about all of that.  It's not something so prevalent that an entire board has to be split up into different sections because of it.  I was just curious why people on this board are so obsessed with the idea of levels when all other boards I know of consider it irrelevant.  I guess you guys are just way more concerned with what you may face 1% of the time rather than 99% of the time.  But for the people that may have been confused about all this level talk around here it doesn't matter what level your proxy is for you to be anonymous.  It just matters that the proxy is anonymous.  I guess that in the 1 in 1,000 situation you may get in where a site blocks all proxies it may matter but the rest of the time it doesn't.

katmando

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Re: Why is so much made about proxy levels here?
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2007, 09:28:38 AM »
Well don't let the door hit you in the brain on your way out.  You couldn't possibly be the Wickerman who wrote the AD tutorial way back when.  That person, although his tutorial wasn't very good, at least possessed a thought process beyond that of a 12 year old.

I do not see where this board is divided into various levels of anonymity or that anyone here is particularly or overly concerned about levels.  The two programs that are being touted by this site, and the reason for this site, simply categories proxies into there own properitary level system.  If you and others like you (porn site hackers) don't care about levels, then what if does it matter to you how they are separated here?  Just leech them like you would anyplace else, test them and use them. 

You come here thinking you have some knowledge, but wind up indicating your lack thereof.  You only make a mountain out of a mole hill, and try to prove a point that holds no water.  Proxies are used for many reasons other than cracking porn sites and other illegal matters.
I tell it like it is and that's offensive to those professing knowledge they don't have.

Wickerman

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Re: Why is so much made about proxy levels here?
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2007, 09:36:13 AM »
And if you live in a country with all kinds of censorship I guess it might matter.  But I've never had to deal with that.  I understand what you're saying though.  You do encourage your members to retest the proxies they get off of here though, right?  Just seems more simple to me to have one forum for anonymous proxies, and one for transparent.  Then when people retest they can sort them anyway they want.  The way it is now I'd have to post a few different threads to post one proxy list.  But anyway, it's your board.  Do what you want.  I just haven't been at one before where the focus was put so strongly towards the rare sites that ban proxies altogether.

Wickerman

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Re: Why is so much made about proxy levels here?
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2007, 09:38:51 AM »
Damn, what are you so pissed about?  Chill out.  You are the one making more of this than what it is.  And I didn't want to leech anything.  I wanted to post a list.  But then I saw I'd have to break it up into multiple posts and said to hell with it.  But really, I don't know what you're getting so worked up about.

katmando

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Re: Why is so much made about proxy levels here?
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2007, 11:44:01 AM »
This isn't my board, if I was the things that are wrong about it (in my opinion) would be corrected, and people who don't know what they are talking about but try to act like they do would not be allowed here.

It would be interesting to know what boards you normally post proxies at, since I visit most of the popular ones (using different handles on each) and don't recall seeing your name connected to any of the posted lists.  If the proxies you supposedly could post here are fresh, new and not just the same ones everyone else posts here, I'm sure they would be welcome regardless of whether you put them in level 1 (elite only) or level 2 (other anonymous proxies).  And, only a moron doesn't know that proxies should always be tested before using them. 

Lets face it, you didn't have anything of real value to post here, cuz if you did you would have already done it.  You are all talk and little do, just like your statement that you were out of here because you didn't like this place ... but you're still here.
I tell it like it is and that's offensive to those professing knowledge they don't have.

Terry

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Re: Why is so much made about proxy levels here?
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2007, 10:59:25 PM »
Because the two proxy tools here are using this level system:

Quote
* High Anonymous Proxy (Level 1): The web server can't detect whether you are using a proxy by the information your browser sent.
* Anonymous Proxy (Level 2): The web server knows that you are probably using a proxy, but it can't detect your real IP.
* Transparent Proxy (Level 3): The web server knows that you are using a proxy and it can also detect your real IP address.

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Wickerman

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Re: Why is so much made about proxy levels here?
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2007, 04:48:08 AM »
I think I need to explain a thing or two.  I saw a link for this forum on another board.  And I thought, "Cool, another proxy board."  Then I got here and I saw level this and level that all over the place and I was curious why levels were being talked about so much.  I wasn't aware that there were proxy tools you are promoting that use that as I had been here only a couple minutes when I posted the question.

But the problem is I posted the question in as terrible of words as possible and that other guy went totally medieval on my ass.  It's not a good idea to post while drinking and I got that truth reaffirmed to me the hard way.  The things he's flaming me about are things I DO know about but I phrased things in such a horrible way that I guess I brought it on.  When I looked at the thread the next day I was embarrassed to say the least. 

First of all, I DO know that Charon has a scoring system.  Where I said it wasn't exactly the same thing a better way to have said that would have been to say that because I never pay attention to the scores I don't really know what score in Charon would translate to level 1 or what score would translate to level 2, etc.  That just isn't something I've ever checked into because I've never cared.  So yeah, for me to say that the programs I use to check proxies don't check for levels that was kinda' true in the sense that they don't actually say level 1 and level 2.  But it also wasn't a good way of saying it because those scores do translate to the same thing if you've bothered to find out what the scores mean.

I noticed the conversation got really nasty once I used the word paranoid.  I didn't even mean for that to be insulting.  It was just another way of saying that you might be more cautious than me.  I personally wasn't trying to get snippy until I started the post where I said "Touchy, touchy."  But by that time I'd already had a jab or two thrown at me.

I'll admit that my opening post was a bit condescending but in my drunken state when I initially saw all the "level this and level that" all over the place I thought to myself, "These guys don't know that a low level anonymous proxy won't spill your IP."  Hey, I didn't know what caliber of forum this might be because I hadn't heard of it before so for whatever reason that's the first thing that came to my mind.  I hadn't even stopped to consider that the concerns about what level they were might be rooted in whether or not the proxy was spilling something other than the IP.  I can't count how many people I've run into over the years who have thought that a higher level means more anonymous or that a lower level one might reveal their IP while the higher one wouldn't.  So my initial reaction was that I was looking at another case of that and that's why I made my topic entirely about whether or not the IP was being spilled.  To be totally honest when I saw the levels my first thought was that maybe y'all were using AD to test proxies, lol.  Hence my reason for making the comment about the dark ages of using it.  Like I said, I made the mistake of assuming that the levels were being used because some of you might have falsely believed that a higher level proxy would hide your IP better than a low level one would.  So I wasn't giving people enough credit and didn't stop to think things through before making my comments about the IPs.  The other mistake was that I wasn't broad enough, I focused everything around the IP and didn't stop to consider that the levels might be there because of something else.  I admit that with what I use proxies for levels almost always don't matter and because of that considerations for other aspects of them can slip my mind from time to time.

Yes, I AM AWARE that in some instances it will matter if a source is aware that a proxy is being used but I still maintain that those instances are rare ( Unless you live in a country with lots of censorship I suppose. ).  And no, I'm not just talking about cracking/hacking as was alleged.  Most things you use an anonymous proxy for you can do with one that isn't of a high level.  Yes, there are exceptions to that.  I'm just saying the majority of the time you shouldn't need an elite proxy.

So in a nutshell what I'm saying is that where I messed up is that I too narrowly focused on one aspect of things and didn't stop to consider the other things before posting.  And that was dumb and a mistake and there is no denying it.  But I do know about the things I was being accused of not knowing about.  I simply messed up and didn't stop to consider those things before posting.  It was a moment of bad judgment, not a lack of knowledge about proxies.  And I apologize for starting the thread in a condescending way.  I didn't even realize I was doing it at the time but when I looked at it again the next day I immediately was aware that I could and should have phrased things in a much more precise and respectful way.  But like I said, at the time I had falsely convinced myself that I was talking to people that didn't even know a low level proxy wouldn't spill your IP.  It was most certainly an exercise in bad judgment.

And btw, you were right that my proxies would have been the same ol' shit that you can find on any decent proxy board.  But can't the same thing be said about virtually anyone?  I wish I had a big secret stash of them that only I know about.  But unfortunately that isn't the case.

katmando

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Re: Why is so much made about proxy levels here?
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2007, 07:37:25 AM »
Your apology is accepted.  However, you are old enough and have been around long enough to know that coming onto any board (site) thinking you know more about anything before actually checking it out is moronic.  As is posting anything while being drunk.  There is never an excuse for that and it's a lesson you should have learned years ago at SBZ.

It doesn't matter what country a person lives in or how rare YOU think using a highly anonymous proxy is.  YOU have already proven here time and time again that you knowledge on the subject is very limited.  So, do yourself a favor and simply keep quite on the subject now.  You have shown with your last offering that you do have a brain.  :)))

Katmando aka Lorissa
I tell it like it is and that's offensive to those professing knowledge they don't have.

Wickerman

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Re: Why is so much made about proxy levels here?
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2007, 05:31:27 PM »
Lorissa, eh?  No wonder you turned this into an insult fest.  You're one of Deny's old hats.  Those guys live for confrontation.  Whatever, I didn't word things in the best way and you took advantage of that to make yourself look big.  So then I tried to bring some decorum to the thread by being extremely apologetic and explaining myself a little better.  But you continue to insult me.  But now that I know who you are and where you come from that makes perfect sense.  And the funny thing is that despite the negative atmosphere that permeates Deny in general you managed to not be well liked there at all.  Your bad attitude was too much for even them to deal with.  You've always been a bad seed in this community and had I known who you were I never would have apologized to you.  I'm actually embarrassed that I did now.  So go ahead and post some snide comments, it's one you're known for.  But now that I know who you are it won't matter to me because you're not someone to take seriously.  Had I known you were Lorissa from the beginning this would have gone much differently.  I tried to show you some respect but based on who you are you don't deserve any.  You've always been a troll looking to cause trouble and nothing more.  If I were you I guess I'd use a different nick on every board I go to as well.:)

Wickerman

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Re: Why is so much made about proxy levels here?
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2007, 05:34:12 PM »
Damned typos.:(

 

anything